Emerging Africa

and 2. Jeebie

OK my view is based on not more than 5 minutes watching and listening on UTube. I like you try to see the good in ministries; if people are getting healed, I bless it. So these are my observations thus far; I might investgate him further if my knee jerk reactions below prove wrong. I'll prpobably have to. What the hell, here goes...

Whatever the miraculous components to anything, healing should be viewed in the overall. To me, some things are being severely messed up in the name of healing. So the net result is not that salvific.

I speak more about my experience over 20 years as a charismatic, more than this Todd bloke. But as he opens his mouth I hear manipulation, devotion to spectacle and a certain grotesqueness that turns my stomach, not to mention grinds away at my aesthetic sensibilities. Limbs may be growing but something in me shrinks similtaneously.

For me pulpit antics serve almost no purpose, I am interested in the humanity (and sanity) of the messanger, this is what the incarnation is about. Do we honestly think Jesus talked to people along similar hysterical lines as what we are hearing there? You read his recorded words - poetic, endlessly meaningful, and his actions - when did he ever have to resort to hype? Reason is - he actually had authority, he didn't have to drum it up.

Eccentricity - definately. Tatoos - nice. Healing - definately.

But Hype on steroids in the Name of Jesus? I don't think so.

There has got to be an alternative model.

OK after this rant I suppose I shall have to watch more, sigh...

"We would not have heard about Todd [if] Godde was not with him."
I'd say that YouTube had something to do with us hearing about Todd.

His website has commoditisation written all over it. He is marketing intimacy, selling power, and packaging the Holy Spirit.

I am reminded of Jesus' approach to money changing in the temple here.

[Updated]
OK I have spent some time reading his website, and I concede that there are aspects of his vision that are worthwhile. I liked the way he "soaks" in the Spirit.

Every venture starts off somewhat naive, and embued with grace and wonder. So there are seeds there of intimacy that are good. I don't know how I would have handled it differently if I was Todd. And I don't know how Todd will handle things when he has been in faith for 30 years.

OI STRAY - What have you got to say on this - you started it!

Yeah, yeah - I've been lurking with some fascination with the conversation between the two of you :)

I was quite taken aback at your, Nic, statements about whether it is entirely *salvific*. Now that was some brilliant insight! I gave that some long thought.

Envoy, your comments surprised me too! You are right that we ought to be humble in our approach. But what really got me going was your experiences - and your comments about 'healing and driving out spirits' BEFORE people believe anything is excellent. In fact, your post really had an edge to it that surprised me and gave me lots to think and pray about.

Have you considered if you have a gift of healing? One of the things I'm trying to figure out is whether the 'gift of healing' is both for ALL and yet SOME at the same time - just like the prophetic. We all need to be prophetic in some way, except some are more prophetic than others. Is that because God has granted them more of a certain Spiritual Gift? Or just because they trained themselves more in it?

For example, my Mom is very prophetic and speaks in pictures and dreams. It seems she can't help it - that's just the way things happen for her. Me, I've had a few dreams and a number of prophetic words - yet, when I lead worship or try and facilitate meetings, I move (or, try to move) in the prophetic in terms of being sensitive to what the Spirit wants for that meeting. But, there is a clear difference between how she moves in the prophetic and how I do. Basically, she is a LOT more prophetic than me. Is that because I have lack of training? Or because God has given that Spiritual gift in greater measure to her? (while giving me another in greater measure?)

I've been prayerfully considering this thing of healing and the spiritual gifts the last few days since I posted this post and one of the things I think - when we talk of an alternative model - is that this business of having one healer guy running 'the show' is part of the problem. It would be more salvific if there was not one with a 'healing gift' but many - so that, instead, the church itself becomes known as the place of healing (not the man Todd Bentley.)

Which leads me into the question of : where the heck are those with the clear gift of healing? I mean, as one guy preaches better than another so we should expect one guy has more success with healing than another (or, should we?) If so, is it because the church has largely disregarded - both in theology and practise - the ministry of healing? Is it because we're all too scared to be a Todd Bentley and seem a little wack? Or, is Todd actually a little wack because the only people who will give his ministry the thumbs up are also a little wack?

Personally, I think that even amongst those who do believe God heals today (which is most of us, anyway) there is still a theological bias either towards a suffering gospel or towards a "we don't want the wierd in our church" type of thinking... or something like that. I'm not actually sure what I'm trying to say...

Perhaps we just don't give enough support - and grounding - to those who God has given the gift of healing? I mean, how much literature and talk is there about this amongst church circles anyway? I tend to hear very little... except when we're speaking of guys like Todd Bentley.

(PS : I don't mean to be disrespectful either when I say some guys are a 'little wack' - culture is a big thing here, too.)

www.ryanpeterwrites.com
"The Glory of God is man fully alive" - St Iraneaus

Hey Envoy,

I responded to your comment at my blog and then headed here to respond - and I see you're saying the same thing! :)

1) "We exercise our gifts according to the faith."

This is where I'm realising that healing is probably the same. I have always been encouraged to practice the prophetic - but I haven't heard anyone encourage us to practice healing. I'm beginning to think that it makes sense we practice healing as well, and so I've started practicing on myself and some around me (with some really interesting results!)

2) "We can structure for encountering Godde whether in church or when doing ministry at large - Vineyard as one example emphasises worship, the word and the work of the Holy Spirit - and hence when it's planned and expected as normative it is actually also more a part of things"

The circle of church I generally hang around with tend to do this - and they lean strongly towards the prophetic. We all also trust God heals (and we've seen some amazing miracles in my previous church - before I planted - one girl got healed of AIDS.) However, we don't practice healing the same way we do the prophetic - it's not that it isn't encouraged, or that no one believes we can pray and see people healed; it's just that it isn't taught or spoken about in this way of practicing it.

3) "We can and should seek Godde and wait on Godde for power and revelation"

Totally! I think this is important - especially since we need discernment (revelation) to know where a problem may be. What if the person's sickness is demonic in cause?

Ah, which makes me ask another question - how do you guys see spiritual warfare? Or what is your take on demons? Nic, I know you're reading this... I don't hear Emergents speak about this stuff too much...

4) We can choose to focus our attention on others' stories, including those in Scripture and history, as a way of expanding our idea of how and why Godde works through 'signs and wonders'

Brilliant! See my next comment on this :)

5) We can do away with the myth that Godde is wholly unseeable; rather, an experience of Godde is tangible and clearly noticeable

Definately! Woot woot!

I'm excited for you guys too, Envoy. I'm sure God is going to speak to you guys mightily and do some awesome stuff through you guys.

www.ryanpeterwrites.com
"The Glory of God is man fully alive" - St Iraneaus

I picked up Francis Macnutt's other book at Paulines (the Catholic bookstore in JHB) last week and have started reading it. It's called "The Power to Heal" (I was attracted to the title speaking of 'power'.)

In this book, he goes over just some of the experiences and stories he has found being in the healing ministry. So far, at chap 2, I've been touched and changed quite tremendously.

Why? Well, because he says he has found out something very important. That is, that many people are not healed INSTANTLY but healed over time, or healed during prolonged prayer times.

To start with, Macnutt said that during healing meetings he would ask people who could honestly say they were healed completely to put their hands up, and some would. Then he would ask who felt nothing happened and some guys would respond. But he always noticed that there were some people that weren't sure, and would say SOMETHING happened but they were not fully healed.

Jesus prayed for a blind man twice before his vision got restored.

He produces a very rough estimate in his book (he admits it's very rough) where he says that about 25% people at meetings would be fully healed, 25% not healed at all, and 50% only partially healed - meaning, that 50% of people needed longer prayers or more time laying on of hands.

Putting it into practice, they've seen many many people fully healed when they only spent longer time with them. The stories are touching because these are times when church communities became involved with people to pray for them - spending entire weekend sessions with a family and coming in, one after another, to pray for the sick child. Slowly, over the weekend, the disease would degenerate - a spine coming right, sight slowly returning etc. but it took hours and hours of prayer (and, he admits, some still need more prayer.)

Interestingly enough, they've noticed that sometimes healing would stop and they would get discernment to pray for inner healing - such as a forgiveness issue etc. Then, after this problem got sorted out, the physical healing would continue.

What I really like about Macnutt is he is honest and open about this, plus readily admits that most of these healings didn't take place through his prayers - because he didn't have the time to spend eight hours in prayer when he had a plane to catch. But healings happen through the constant prayers and laying on of hands in the communities (Macnutt is in the Catholic Church! Woot woot! Happy to see that, as I think it brings a lot of wisdom into this conversation.)

I've started practicing on myself and seeing some amazing results. Firstly, I hurt my ankle two or three weeks ago and so the other night started praying for it (it was still a little sore.) I did feel some heat of sorts in my hand, going into my foot, and spent about twenty or thirty minutes just praying or seeking God silently while touching it.

It certainly felt a LOT better afterwards - I mean, a noticeable difference.

A while back I remember having a horrible cold and decided to pray for healing. I decided I was going to push in nomatter what, and it took two hours for the cold to go away after just praying and seeking. In those two hours I could feel something happening, and God's presence flowing over me with wave after wave until I truly felt better and went to sleep. Next morning, I was 100% well.

My girlfriend was also sick this last week (suddenly, I realise there's a stack of opportunities to practice this) and while we were watching a movie I just laid my hands on her and without her knowing silently just prayed and asked God to heal while my hands were laid on her.

At the end of the movie, she piped up and said, "I feel so much better."

Isn't that just awesome??

I'm excited about this because it presents a challenge to the community :

1) We need to spend MORE time in prayer, and MORE time praying for each other.
2) It means we all have been given the ability to heal (hey, we can all pray and lay hands on people.) Healing ISN'T for the select few.
3) It means that the community has to get involved with each other, and we have to have compassion for each other.

Francis Macnutt speaks about the kind of fatalism/legalism we see in typical Pentecostal circles of healing (he is equally critical of Catholic tendencies towards healing.) He is critical of the idea that healing must be instant or it's not real healing; or if someone doesn't feel 'healed' they don't have enough faith, or they don't believe in God, or whatever else. The problem is this often DESTROYS the faith of the other person, and does nothing except give them a guilt complex.

I've always hated that approach, but not understood how healing happens any other way except instant : because we aren't taught healing any other way. We're always taught the ideal; or, that we need to be brilliant from this at day one. This is another one of those areas, I think, where our legalism/idealism/culture of instant microwave meals has presented a problem towards the idea of discipling. Jesus discipled; we insist that people must always look and sound perfect. Jesus was patient; some Christians insist that any sin might mean your salvation is in danger. Jesus spoke of trees bearing FRUIT (A process, something that takes time); we tend to see Christianity, good works and miracles as some sort of factory-produced instant pudding. Our culture demands everything must be instant; Jesus demands that things take time : seeds must be planted, the tender shoots watered, and they must grow into strong trees that bear fruit and where the birds can come and find shade.

No wonder we see so little healing : we expect that either 'we have it or we don't' or that God must either heal instantly or he is not going to heal. God is not Ronald McDonald giving us instant happy meals : he is the farmer who plants, waters and grows fruit trees.

If God doesn't heal instantly, then I used to think that either we didn't have the faith required (as if faith is some sort of mental willpower we need to conjure up - which confused me because that's not how the Bible presents it ) or God just didn't want to heal the person (or me!)

Rather, it seems God is challenging us to spend TIME in prayer, TIME in his presence, and TIME with each other then we would see more results.

Spending this time also allows us to practice this gift - to begin to understand it, know how it works; the same way we may do with the prophetic.

What do you guys think?

www.ryanpeterwrites.com
"The Glory of God is man fully alive" - St Iraneaus

Nic,

I really enjoyed Walter Wink's Engaging the Powers and Elain Pagels' The Origin of Satan. These definately demythologise evil and argue for how humans are responsible for it. But they're not focusing on the reality of the demonic but rather on the unreality of it.

I've seen a man hissing like a snake and moving like a snake on the floor through chairs (and not been able to drive the demon out). I've heard a woman screaming the most bloodcurlding scream I've ever heard every time I tried to give a prophetic word to someone during a ministry session (and drove the spirit out). I've had a spirit come to me and try and buy my commitment to it and had two spirits come to me wanting to be spirit guides to people in a group I was teaching one of my courses to where I teach about spiritual beings.

The NT does not deal with spiritual warfare metaphorically. Rather, Jesus' demonstrates that His war is with Satan and not humanity and the gospel asks us to put away the notion that Godde has decided prematurely to be as done with us as S/He is with Satan and his angels. In light of that it recommends that we patiently deal with people for our real stress is not with 'flesh and blood'.

We may not like the metaphor and it, just as any singular metaphor, is not wholly appropriate. But we cannot do away with the image either. It is there and asks us to include it. It is one tangent we have explaining the gospel and our role as disciples of Christ.

Stray,

I find it helpful to bear in mind that I'm only human and that these spirits have been around since the foundation of the world. They play us and hunt us akin to us going fly fishing. They've been doing it a long time and are really, really good at what they do.

Hence I don't prioritise Spiritual Warfare. I used to when I was part of a Christian sub-culture that did but later I realised that much of it was, well, superstition. I prioritise character and intimacy with Godde and acting out of love (when I'm not being a dick for one reason or other). When faced with a problem I seek Godde first and S/He sometimes let's me know if the source of the problem is the person or a spirit. If it is demonic I then seek Godde's input in terms of how to proceed.

If and when appropriate I direct the spirit if it is 'present' otherwise I (actively) leave it up to Godde to deal with them. I understand Christ's mandate to be that we should drive out demons from people not to try and 'clear the air'. Thankfully we have authority of them in Him.

Envoy

I've just read this thread and have nothing meaningful to add, except "thanks!" Good comments. Stray, your experience around praying for healing has challenged me. Envoy, similarly with you! And Nic, deep comments/questions as always :)